Ghost Stories #41: Investec Rand Nikkei 225 Autocall | Investec Dollar Euro Stoxx 50 Autocall

Andri Joubert of Investec Structured Products joined me on this podcast to explain the opportunities and risks related to two new products that give interesting exposure to global indices.

If you’re interested in investing in Japanese (Nikkei 225) or European (Euro Stoxx 50) exposure, then the benefits of these structured products are well worth researching and considering as part of your portfolio.

The closing date for both products is 8 August 2024, so don’t delay if you’re interested in investing.

To assist with your research, listen to the podcast below or read the transcript further down. And remember: you should always discuss an investment like this with your financial advisor.

If you would like more information, visit this link.

Podcast:

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Transcript:

The Finance Ghost: Structured products have come a long way. From a specialised, exotic investment tool, they are now mainstream and financial advisors are more comfortable about investing in them on behalf of clients. In this fifth podcast with the Investec structured products team, Andri Joubert lends his voice to Ghost Stories to unpack two exciting new products with an offshore equity flavour. If you are considering exposure to the Nikkei225 or the EURO STOXX 50, then Investec’s latest offerings have a risk-reward profile for those investments that is worth considering.

Welcome to this episode of the Ghost Stories podcast, and it’s another one featuring the Investec Structured Products team. Now, if you’ve been listening closely to Ghost Stories over the past year or so, you would have learned about some pretty interesting structured products coming out of Investec. And certainly this show, well, I was going to say will be no different, but actually it is a little bit different because today, firstly, we have a new voice on the podcast.

That is Andri Joubert, who is an investment specialist in the Structured Products team. But secondly, we’re also doing two products in one. You’re going to have to concentrate for this one. But obviously we’ll try and make it as simple as we can. And Andri, I think part of what we’ll talk about, obviously, is why you are effectively marketing these two products at the same time and what the similarities are. But before we dive into all of that, welcome to the show. Thank you for doing this. And as I say, it’s great to have yet another voice from Investec on the platform.

Andri Joubert: Thank you and thanks for having me and the team. It’s a good question. We recently had two products maturing. Earlier this week, on Monday, actually, both products did tremendously well. So we had one product paying investors 17.1% in rands and one product paying investors 11.05% in US dollars. And they were structured in a similar way that these two products are structured that we’ll discuss today. It was an autocall structure. Initial term would have been five years. But we did give investors the opportunity for it to be up after one year or two year, or three year, or four year, or at the end of five years. The whole idea was bring something out based on research, and if the client is interested in the research and the index that we’re tracking, we give them five bites at the cherry.

So fast forward to Monday this week, the products did both mature so effectively, investors were invested for one year and they got their returns. The two new products work exactly the same. So ideally we looked at opportunities in the market. We looked at indices that will diversify global portfolio risk and we identified the Nikkei225 that we have marketed earlier this year as well, and we identified Europe. What is unique is that we are targeting a rand return for the Nikkei225 and a dollar return for the EURO STOXX 50 product. That is what we’re bringing out. Ideally we’re going to go to investors that just received a return, get them to reinvest, because they would have been in for five years in any case, and then of course get new investors on board, as we do believe there are unique opportunities in these two indices.

The Finance Ghost: I mean, the best outcome for investors is actually that the autocall does its magic after one year, right? You get that full return basically after twelve months, and now you have your money back and you have the flexibility to do it again. Would that be an accurate statement?

Andri Joubert: Yeah, exactly. That’s a very good point. The reality is if we look at where markets are at the moment, all-time highs, everyone is nervous, no one knows, are we going to be in for a five-year bull run? Are we misjudging inflation, rising debt levels in the US, uncertainty in Europe? There’s just a lot of uncertainty in the world in general. And with markets hitting all-time highs, people want to be in the market because they’ve tasted recent returns, but also they don’t want to necessarily go into the market and then experience a correction. So I think that’s where these products are very well-positioned in a portfolio and it forms part of an alternative asset class.

So it’s not for all your money, but it is very, very much important to have an allocation to such an asset class. And the idea is that if equities do well, you will participate in the upside with a defined return that we’ll discuss today. And if for some reason there’s volatility or instability or market correction, there’s a lever of market capital protection in these products and that’s also why we structured over a five-year term. If we see a short-term bull run, the product will pay out after one year. But if we don’t, you can wait for year two or three or four or five. I think it’s well-positioned in very uncertain times.

The Finance Ghost: Yeah, it is incredibly interesting. I mean, on a personal level I’ve really enjoyed learning about these structured products that we’ve covered on the various podcasts. And this is not the first time that we’ve seen the Nikkei225 come up in one of your structured products. I’ve done a podcast with Investec before on a product that was linked to the Nikkei225. And obviously Japan is all over the headlines these days.

You’ve mentioned the general level of markets, and we don’t necessarily want to go into the details of whether or not Japan itself is a great investment and the Investec house view on that, because obviously that’s something that investors – or would it be accurate to say that’s something investors need to believe going into this? It’s like, I want exposure to Japan, but I’m worried about where the index might be. Hang on, this is a cool way to get exposure to that index with the benefits of a structured product, ultimately. Is that the decision? And then ditto, obviously, on the EURO STOXX. Is that the mindset with which investors need to enter this product?

Andri Joubert: Yeah, 100%. So if you look at a typical South African investor, they are overweight emerging markets from a risk profile. They earn their money in South Africa, their property in South Africa. They probably own SA Inc. Their retirement annuities have an allocation to South Africa, so they typically invest in global markets and specifically the US. Now, most of them are overweight US. And we all know the US has seen a tremendous run recently, specifically driven by seven very big companies. And that, of course reduces diversification. Even though they think they are diversified, they’re not really, because there’s concentration risk in that allocation.

So by looking at Europe and by looking at Japan, it gives two unique opportunities that are not very correlated to the US, so it brings in diversification to that South African portfolio and it’s something the investor can buy – for instance, the Nikkei, which is a rand product that’s listed on the JSE – it’s something the investor can buy on their JSE stock broking account. It’s like having international equities in their SA Inc portfolio. And if he’s got an offshore custodian account, they can purchase the EURO STOXX 50 product, which is Dublin listed, which is 100% priced in dollars and offshore.

But we have seen a strong Nikkei rally recently. We still believe there’s value. Japan is expected to maintain a moderate recovery. Remember, it’s coming off a low base. There was many years of flat returns, negative returns, that’s coming off a low base. But there’s still measures to improve capital efficiency and the sector composition is focused more on heavy industry, manufacturing, strong semiconductor industries. So it’s more the hardware than the software the clients would have exposure to in the US allocation.

And the same with Europe. The European Central bank was the first bank to the first developed market bank to cut rates as inflation is starting to decline and that gives an opportunity. Relatively undervalued. If you look at US markets, they appear to be 15% to 20% overvalued. The eurozone definitely stands out as one of the few regions where valuations are below fair value. And the reality is, when you look at this product, you don’t need the market to run. So the product is structured in such a way that you only need this index to be at the same level on the day we trade, at the next observation date or higher. We’re not asking for a bull run. That’s why those two indices.

The Finance Ghost: Europe is interesting. I mean, you make some great points there about Japan and what’s in that index versus some of the US exposure. I always have a small laugh at the Magnificent Seven in the US – it’s basically six plus Tesla. I’m quite the Tesla bear as people know. But I still think it’s criminal that Netflix was kicked out of the Magnificent Seven, really in the place of Tesla.

But moving right on from that, because that’s not what we’re talking about today. What we are talking about is these indices. And I think in Europe, just an observation from my side that’s quite interesting from my recent travels to London. You speak to professionals operating in London and then you go and do some research on the London Stock Exchange and the number of listings. And they have got a lot of the same problems as the JSE, actually, which is quite interesting. And Brexit has really caused them some big issues in terms of attracting new listings. There’s kind of been this general shift in interest from the London exchange, I think, towards the European markets and therefore the European indices. It’s just quite an interesting underpin for the EURO STOXX index in general.

And something to keep in mind, because as we talked about earlier, investors need to go into this wanting to own that index and then effectively using the Investec product as a way to get some downside protection and potentially a nice kicker on your upside return. But you need to understand that you’re buying the EURO STOXX and you need to do the research to say, hey, that is what I want to own. Or the Nikkei225, that is what I want to own. And then go into a product like this.

Andri Joubert: You make a very good point. And also, it’s not just about owning the EURO STOXX or owning or having exposure to the Nikkei225. It’s about how do I diversify my concentration risk to what I have. And when you build a portfolio, ideally what you want is you want many different structured products within the alternative asset class that you invest in. Smaller chunk. When I say small, so let’s say an investor’s got R500,000 to invest on day one. Ideally you don’t want to put R500,000 – that is your only investable income – you don’t want to put all that into one product. I’d rather say, okay, let’s identify three products over the next year and you have the opportunity to diversify your indices, your currency, whatever the product tracks, the level of the market, just a different part of the cycle.

You want to build a portfolio with many different structured products within that asset class, giving you exposure to different indices and all those points just listed. And if you look at the general portfolio at the moment, as I mentioned earlier, overweight US for a typical South African. And that’s why these two indices offer great pricing opportunities and diversification and lower correlation to the rest of the portfolio, as opposed to just looking at a unique opportunity in the index. It’s more about how do I structure my portfolio better.

The Finance Ghost: Yeah, absolutely. These things are always part of a broader portfolio decision. I mean that is absolutely the right way to understand it. And actually, before we get into the mechanics of how the autocall works, etcetera, any portfolio decision always needs to take into account whether or not your money is being locked up for a period and what the liquidity looks like. Now, in this case we’ve got I think what’s called a Flexible Investment Note. And I’m keen to understand more about how that works. I mean, you referenced earlier that the Nikkei product would be listed, you can confirm if the EURO STOXX one is as well, but what does that actually mean for investors?

Because obviously when something is listed, people immediately think, oh, okay, not only would I be able to buy some down the line – and you can comment on that as well – but would I be able to sell early if life gets in the way, which life sometimes does. Despite everyone’s best laid plans, you can go through things like illness or divorce and then suddenly you need to free up money. I think let’s talk through the liquidity and then let’s get into the specifics on how these products actually pay out to an investor.

Andri Joubert: 100%. Both products provide daily liquidity. The JSE listed note, the Nikkei225, is structured as a flexible investment note. Investors would see in the term sheet there’s a 20-year term. But don’t be alarmed, it’s not a 20-year product. I almost want to say it’s a structure that allows investors that holds the note, or that buys the note, to, at the point of maturity, allocate capital quicker to the next issuance and reduce the time lag between the product expiring and reinvesting in a new product.

What happened at the moment or previously before we launched this flexible investment note is the product will pay out, cash will settle, trade plus five days in the client’s account. We would bring out a new product, show to the client, the cash will lie idle in the client stockbroking account, earning a money market interest rate, and then the capital will be reinvested. So how it’s going to work now is we’d go to investors and say, you invested in, let’s use the product that paid out on Monday, that example, you invested in an index, the product is up, it’s going to pay you 17%. It’s likely going to call in a week’s time or two weeks’ time. Would you like to reinvest the proceeds in capital or do you want to exit?

Then the client can elect and that money will automatically be reinvested in a new product, which greatly reduces the time in between maturity and reinvestment. And you can do that for 20 years. You will have five or six or depending how many times these products pay out and whether they run a five-year term or a one-year term, you can have many different variations of product within this 20-year note. If you decide to exit, you can exit at any time still. Still daily liquidity, Investec is the market maker. If you want to sell the product, if you want to sell your share today, we’ll give you a price, we’ll buy it back from you. And we have an active secondary market that we sell these shares in.

You asked about the offshore listed one. The EURO STOXX 50 product is also listed. It’s listed on the Dublin Exchange and that is also daily liquid. We provide investors with daily liquidity and daily pricing, so they’ll see a value of that product in the share trading accounts daily.

The Finance Ghost: Okay, fantastic. So it might be listed in Dublin, but your money can’t be doublin’, unfortunately, but it can go up. And I think the payout ratio is something that we should be talking to now. And I think the payout ratio is super interesting. You mentioned a little bit about it, now we’ll dig into it.

For those who have kind of been waiting for the “drumroll please” moment, it’s here. I won’t give you a drumroll. It’ll just be embarrassing. But what I will do is hand over to Andri to talk through, I guess, just how these payouts work. We need to cover the autocall tests and then what you actually get paid out. And I think maybe let’s bank that and then get into the capital protection and then the extent to which you can’t get capital protection, because obviously, with all the clever structuring in the world by the good people at Investec, they also can’t work a complete economic miracle. There’s no way that you can have upside and zero downside risk. This doesn’t exist in markets. It just doesn’t. I think let’s start with the upside and then maybe let’s talk through the capital protection and then the potential for losing money if things do go really badly.

Andri Joubert: We have two products, both five year terms. I’ll first talk about the rand product. So, the rand product, JSE listed, it tracks Nikkei225. Investors invest rands, they buy a share in rands and the product will pay out in rands. It tracks the Nikkei225 index from a point perspective. It doesn’t track it re: price to a certain currency. What happens is we trade. We’ll close this product on the 7^th of August, we can touch on that now. We trade the product as an initial public offering on the 15^th of August, and we look at the level of the market on that day. Let’s say the Nikkei, the index, on a point basis, is pricing at 40,075 points, which we saw yesterday.

That is the only observation for the client. You’ll look at that level of the market, you’ll log into Bloomberg or Google, type in Nikkei225, and you’ll see 40,075 points on the day that we trade. In a year’s time, if that index is pricing at the same level – 40,075 points or higher – the product will automatically call. And that’s why it’s called an autocall.

And there’s a defined return. That defined return is 17% at the moment. And I say at the moment because prior to trade date, there’s still different market dynamics that come into play. But conservatively, we can say clients can expect 17% traded per annum payout if the market is flat or positive. But let’s say the market is not flat or positive, and in a year’s time, the index is pricing at 39,000 points. Then instead of the product exiting, or the client incurring a loss or client getting their money back, you can wait for the following year.

And then on the 15^th of August, in two years’ time, we look at the level of the market. If the market is 40,075 points or higher, the product will pay out 17% times two, because they were in for two years. Fast forward for five years. So they will have, in a five year term, five opportunities on the 15^th of August for the market to be either flat or positive, for it to pay out. They cannot elect to stay. If the market is flat or positive, it pays out and we’ll bring them another solution. Or they can take their cash.

The Finance Ghost: Okay, that is super interesting. So before we jump onto the EURO STOXX one, earlier I said, well, maybe the best case scenario is you get your money back in a year and you get 17%. I guess it’s kind of debatable, right? Because actually, if you had a crystal ball, you’d say, well, give me my money back in five years and make me 17% a year for five years. That will be lovely, thank you. It’s not about which is the exact right outcome. It’s going to be different per investor and portfolio and what they’re looking for.

Basically, the upside here is in a given year, we wouldn’t expect the Japanese exchange to return 17%. That would be a very, very strong equity return. I mean, we can only dream of these levels in the JSE over any kind of extended period, let alone in a lower risk market like Japan. So there is a potential upside here that is better than you would typically see over the long term out of the Nikkei, right?

Andri Joubert: Correct. And you don’t need the market to run. The market can give you 2%, you’ll get 17, it can give you five, you’ll get 17, it can give you 0.01, you’ll get 17.

The Finance Ghost: And obviously, to qualify that statement, I guess, 17% in rands. I understand the test is in points on the index, but obviously, the payout – you effectively put in rands, you’re getting back rands. The Nikkei return that you would historically look at would be in yen, which historically has been a very nice, steady, stable thing. Not so much anymore. So that’s also an interesting thing to take into account. But from a rand perspective, you can compare that effectively to “what would you be able to get on local opportunities” and then take into account that Japan, well I would see it as a lower risk destination. Yes, there’ll be lots of debate right now around the macroeconomic trend in Japan, maybe, versus South Africa, actually. But on the whole, I think you just have to speak to someone who’s travelled to Japan, and I think we can all agree that the country is probably a little bit more stable than South Africa.

So that 17% in rand, then, does become appealing, especially when you consider that you do have capital protection on the downside, which is something you wouldn’t get if you just bought the index without any of the structuring. So maybe let’s chat through, what is that downside protection on the Nikkei product?

Andri Joubert: We provide capital protection in case of a market correction. If there’s a market correction and the index falls more than 30%, 40%, 50% within the five-year term, nothing happens. The client remains invested because the defined term is five years. So the market can drop 50% in year two, it can come back 20%, drop another 10%, come back 40. It doesn’t affect the product at that point in time.

The price the client will see in their stockbroking account will show the market is down or up, but it doesn’t force them to exit. They are only forced to exit once the product matures and pays out at one of the five observation dates or at the end. If on the last day the market is down 10%, the client will get their capital back. If it’s down 20%, they’ll get their capital back.

There’s a 30% barrier, so if the market is down more than 30%, the client is live in the market. So it’s as if they owned the market and they did not receive any dividends. So you go to a client, you say you can invest in the Nikkei today. You’ll have five opportunities for the Nikkei to pay you 17% per annum until the first date it pays out. If something goes wrong, you’ll have capital protection. If something goes wrong on the last observation date, and when I say wrong, more than 30% wrong, you will be live in the market. How does that sound?

Most clients would like that. There’s a level of capital protection, the market does not have to run, and you get a defined outcome. Clients need to be comfortable with the fact that there is capital at risk on the last day. But also having that barrier there allows us to give a better return. If you do not have a barrier and you provide a client with 100% capital protection, that 17% simple interest will be lower, and then it’s not as attractive. And it’s a risk that we’ve back tested and looked at, and it’s a risk that we think is justifiable for that additional upside.

The Finance Ghost: Yeah, and the point here is that if you’re going to go in and buy the Nikkei blind effectively, or live in the market, as you say – that’s quite a nice term, that’s a better term than mine, for sure – you’re going to own the index, and if it tanks, it tanks, you’re going to wear that. If it drops by up to 30%, you’re going to wear that too. And if it does its normal sort of upside, you’ve then got to ask yourself, well, what am I really giving up by being in the structured product? Because the structured product doesn’t just give you the downside protection, it also gives you potentially a nice leveraged upside.

I think it would be quite brave to say that from these levels, if you just go and buy a Nikkei ETF, that you reckon you are going to do materially better than 17% a year in rands over potentially up to five years. I mean, that is a very big call. And you’d have to look at it on a risk-weighted basis, right? I would never personally – and obviously, each investor would have to make their own decision – I would never look at the index and say, okay, I think I can beat that kind of return, risk-weighted, I don’t want the capital protection, I’m just worried about not giving up the upside. Give me the ETF. That sounds like a big call. Obviously, each investor must make their own decision, of course. But I do think that the profile of this instrument is interesting, it’s appealing.

Andri Joubert: It is very unique. And also it’s proven. We just had a product paying out, as I mentioned earlier, and that index didn’t give investors 17% or the dollar index didn’t give investors 11% in US dollars. It was quite a bit lower. You’re 100% right. With the EURO STOXX 50 product, there’s slight differences. The one difference is it’s not structured as a Flexible Investment Note. At the end of the product, when the product matures, at the end of the term, the product will cash settle in the client’s securities account or custody account. It’s 100% in US dollars. The capital protection is in US dollars and the potential payout is in US dollars. But it does offer a very attractive 10.25% US dollar return per annum until the first call date.

The difference here is the first call date is only after three years, not after one year. The EURO STOXX is not a typical index that will rally massively and correct quickly and rapidly. It’s a very mature market that includes value stocks, that pays high divvies, it includes your very well-priced banking and industrial sector companies. For that reason we’ve elected to have the first potential payout after three years rather, to give it time, also with the ECB that only recently cut rates, so we should start seeing that positive effect over time. But the clients will still be compensated per annum. If the product pays out after three years, if the index is up after three years, the client will get 10.25% in US dollars per year. It solves to 30.75% after three years.

And then if for some reason the index is flat after three years, or down, sorry, not flat, down, then the investor will have another opportunity, another observation date in year four and again in year five. With the EURO STOXX 50 dollar product, you have three bites at the cherry over a five year term, where with the Nikkei225 rand product you have five bites of the cherry.

The Finance Ghost: And just with that one being in dollars, so does that mean you need to already have your money offshore? This would be part of your investment allowance, your foreign investment allowance as an individual. Whereas the Nikkei product, I think you said it’s listed on the JSE and it’s rand. So there, it’s no issue, you’re not actually using up your allowance.

Andri Joubert: You can asset swap through your local securities account, you can chat to your financial advisor to assist you with that, or you can go direct and use that asset allowance. You have two options. You either asset swap, then the money has to come back, or you can just send the money offshore directly to that offshore custodian account, or with money already sitting offshore.

The Finance Ghost: Let’s get into some of the plumbing then, in the last few minutes of the podcast. Investment minimums, that’s always important. And I think to what extent can it be individuals, companies, trusts, just for people listening to this, if this has piqued their interest and they’re thinking about where they put this in their structures, what does that look like?

Andri Joubert: For the Nikkei225 rand product, the minimum investment is R100,000 and increments of R1,000 over that. And then for the US dollar product, the minimum is $6,000. Those are the two minimums. The closing dates are the 8th August. So it gives us just a bit more than a month. The way you can purchase it is on your stockbroking account. So any entity or person that holds a stockbroking account could purchase the share, because it’s a listed share. So if a trust has a stockbroking account, it can purchase the share for individual or company, it can purchase the share. It’s not limited to individuals.

The Finance Ghost: Okay, so I could go into my Easy Equities account – well, I’m sure it’s not quite as easy as going into my Easy Equities account because the – is the instrument listed already? I mean, would I be able to find the ticker on my brokerage app or whoever I trade with, I mean, with Investec or whatever the case may be. Is it there already? Or is it a case of contacting the broker?

Andri Joubert: You need to contact the broker because the structures are listed as an initial public offering, an IPO, so you won’t see it on your stockbroking account as a share that’s available to buy.

What I suggest is contact your financial advisor, tell them that you’ve heard about this product, you would like to invest. And if your advisor can’t help you or he doesn’t have access to these kind of investments, you can contact any one of our team that will put you in contact with an advisor. Typically the advisors have the experience to look at the portfolio as a whole, position it from a risk-return perspective, and just give realistic financial advice and also give their opinion on allocation, size, etcetera. We suggest working through an advisor to invest in these kind of products.

The Finance Ghost: Okay, fair enough. Yeah, look, that’s always the advice is go through an advisor. Not everyone has one, but it’s certainly always the advised route. If you’re going to go it without an advisor, then just understand the risks you are taking.

Last couple of questions. One is about risk. It’s always important to understand the credit risk that sits underneath these structures because they have derivatives and other kind of cool things in them. So where does the credit risk sit in this particular structure?

Andri Joubert: The products are issued by banks or by a bank. This product is issued by Investec Bank Limited.

Your absolute risk is Investec Bank Limited from a credit perspective. If you are not comfortable with Investec Bank or having your money invested with Investec bank, you shouldn’t invest in the product, because if Investec bank falls over, your capital is at risk, right. So no one, I mean, you have capital protection against market corrections, but the nature of these products and the risk inherent to it is credit risk.

To explain what level of risk that is, the articles represent general unsecured senior contractual obligations of Investec Bank Limited. The Nikkei225 only references Investec Bank Limited, and the EURO STOXX 50 references Investec Bank Limited and also Bank of America Corp. Bank of America being one of the biggest banks in the world, it is additional risk, but it’s not more risky in absolute terms. And we felt comfortable extending the risk to Bank of America Corp to enable us to enhance the return slightly.

Clients need to be comfortable with both of those institutions or both of those banks. Because if there’s a massive market – well, not market correction, but if there’s a run on a bank or, and it has happened before, but very low probability in our mind, capital can be at risk.

The Finance Ghost: Yeah, I don’t like to downplay risk, I think people who listen to me know that. But I think that if Investec and Bank of America go down, I think the least of your problems realistically will be your R100,000 sitting in a Nikkei product, because it means that the world has literally caught fire. That’s the way I think about these things.

Last question from my side, Andri. Just the fees involved in the products. We’ve talked about the returns, are those net of the money that Investec is making from this, bluntly? Obviously you guys don’t do this for charity and everyone knows that. So are those returns net of fees?

Andri Joubert: Correct. Yhe capital protection and the returns quoted today, 100% capital protection or being live in the market, or getting 17% after year one, or getting 10.25% US dollars after year one, is net of fees, right? Yhe way a structured product is structured, we provision for the fees in the structure. The financial advisor that sells the product receives a fee and the structuring house i.e. Investec Bank Limited will receive a fee, but it doesn’t affect the payout that the client will get. For financial advisors, with the Nikkei225 having its first potential call date after one year, we will pay them a 2% distribution fee in year one. If the product runs for five years, then there’s no fees in year two, three, four, or five. So effectively, it’s a 40bps per annum fee again, built in. And then with the EURO STOXX 50 autocall, the first call being after three years, we structure it paying 1.25% in year one, 0.75% in year two, and 0.75% in year three for the distributor, and then no fees in year four and five.

So very competitive from a fee perspective, you alluded to it being net fees. And there might be a stock broking account fee that your stockbroker might charge. Typically that’s R60 or R80 a month for the stock broking account. But that that’s not an investing charge.

The Finance Ghost: No. And you’re probably paying that anyway, because you probably have an account already if you’re listening to this. So I think, Andri, that basically brings us to a close. It’s been a great discussion. Some really interesting stuff, as usual. I’m super tempted, particularly on the Nikkei one, so I’ll go and do some more thinking around that. But thank you very much for your time. And I think as a closing comment, where do listeners go and find more information about these products?

Andri Joubert: Clients can go onto our website, it’ll be listed there. We will send out the official launch documents to all our distributors – most of the financial institutions that provide financial advice and that distribute these kind of products. I’d say best is just to contact your financial advisor or just go onto the Investec website and the product will be listed there.

The Finance Ghost: Fantastic. Andri, thank you so very much, and to Investec, and good luck with the product. I have no doubt that it will close successfully like the zillions of products you’ve done before. And I look forward to doing the next structured product discussion with you and the team.

Andri Joubert: Thank you so much.